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Guild Meeting

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LostThyme
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11 am KI time? I can probably be there. :)

Lunanne
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Okay the last meeting was busy and productive, resulting in a 26-page chatlog ( please tell me whether it needs more cleaning).

Summary:

Magazine:

  • The magazine is ...

    Article in the magazine should not be : opinion pieces, letters to te editor etc. , rhetoric, lomg, multi-part, no reprinting(when it can be avoided). The magazine contains both IC and OOC articles

  • We had several possible articles either posted on a forum or sent to us in a e-mail that sort of covered the same subject. Theremin was going to look at them to see whether they are of any use.
  • Interviews should be an article not Q&A (this was actually said before but well...)
  • Sandman's article will need to be discussed
  • H'uru article will be next issue
  • Article on the greeters by AgeExplorer including interviewed greeters and summary of the history.
  • Putting short personal articles/thoughts by explorers in the magazine will be considered
  • Article on the soundtracks of the games is being considered
  • A picture puzzle will be included (like [url]http://www.guildofmessengers.com/en/book/picture-puzzle[/url])

Other Guild stuff:

  • As we do not know a lot about the history of the guild, more information is being sought on this and will probably be put in the evil place of doo wiki
  • In the light of the GoG drama, there will be a proposal to refine the Guild structure document. A summary of the proposal is : The fact that the guild members can call for new elections  will be more clearly stated. There will be no defined terms, but the GM's will periodically take up the subject of elections during guild meetings ( this will also go in the structure document). There will be an official post on the forums on this later (and a vote, Leonardo?)
  • Leonardo would like to see more Messengers in the cavern to remind people of our existence and give them information.
  • We discussed the way the Grey hats/OHB could ease the Cavern Crier's task. We now have a new GoMe avi, whose KI mails will become editable via the web
  • rel.to will be organized to the new structure that was decided on last

Chatlog : here

Leonardo
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Thank you Luna!

Yes I'm going to post the proposal for the Structure Document soon :)

For the point of going around in the Cavern, I said that because I have noticed that there are a lot of people who have no idea of the existence of the Guild and so don't know where to look at for News and informations. I'm starting to go around in the Cavern and talk with casual players about us and get their thoughts about us.

Yes, we now have a shared GoMe account in MOULa and an avatar, but it only needs to be used for the project with OHB: from what I got, there won't necessarily be a web interface for editing the KiMails (we can use BabelBot, I'll add an article about this in the Cavern Criers Tools Book), but the interesting part is that OHBot will be able to send out our KiMails (taking them from the KI of our avatar), as if it was a Cavern Crier. In this way we address the major problem that people are currently seeing with us in the Cavern: the lack of a central place for getting our News. This doesn't make the Cavern Criers obsolete, since OHBot is fixed in GoR hood and not everyone will know about his new abilities.

rel.to: I gave Luna the file of the database and she will try to organize better the "help" and "ages" sections following the logic of our latest discussions. Meanwhile I have started the work on rel.to's code

Lunanne
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*knockknock* uh guys it uh seems we missed out two guildmeetings...you could have reminded us.... Anyway I set up a poll for the next one which will probably be /in cavern/ again as we might stay more OT there. 

Linky : http://www.doodle.com/hg5rc6yznw6sqvzw

One thing I would like to discuss is the possibilty of simply keeping these meetings the week after the AGM on a set time as that is what we tend to end up with anyway.

Leonardo
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mmh, the poll misses some hours, from 00.00 to 8.00

And are the times KiTime?

Lunanne
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uhoh sorry.I added the missing itmes. It is in KI time as usual.

Lunanne
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As only 5 people have entered their times so far, and only 3 people max. can meet at the same time, should I make a longer poll or is it simply not necessary?

Theremin
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Hard to say, I could go either way on that one. Are there any pressing issues we should discuss?

Lunanne
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Well one of the things I would like to discuss is a set time for the guild meeting so we don't have to remember to do polls every time but idk

Theremin
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Yeah, that's a good point. I know there was some discussion quite a while back about setting up a regular meeting when the Newspaper was still in production. It would alternate each meeting, to allow for differences in location. I know setting one time is difficult for everyone to attend.

Lunanne
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I and Leonardo have decided that a guild meeting is necessary. Considering the fact that Doodle didn't really work out  last time we decided to just set a time and date and see who turns up. 

So this Sunday, 10 July, there will be a Messenger Meeting at 11.00 KI time in the Messenger's Pub in MOULa. I would like to see as many people possible there, sending out PM's is being considered. 

 

Note : Day has changed!

Theremin
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Can we set it for Monday instead? I am away this weekend, and would like to participate especially if we are going to disuss the magazine.

kaeebonrai
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Yay... Sunday... Or should I say 2am Monday morning on a work night.

Monday would count me out, too. >.>

 

Meh, "oh well".

Lunanne
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If you cannot come and still would like to voice your opinion on something, you can either post/reply in a relevant topic on the forum or PM me or Leonardo, then we will make sure it is discussed/considered/shared on the guild meeting. 

If there are lots cancellations and/or few people turning up, there might be one again soon on a more convenient time for those people. This doesn't mean you shouldn't come when you can. 

I know it may seem like a weird time, but I and Leonardo feel that we should have a guild meeting asap, the last one has been quite a while ago, and that trying to please everyone clearly doesn't work, considering the last attempt to schedule a guild meeting. 

Leonardo
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ok today we had a mini-meeting in the Pub with Musica and Lunanne

We discussed some things:

_We need to ping all the messengers and update the list of active ones

_if there are still Cavern Criers we will try to change how they work, making them a bit more scheduled

_we could run a series of issues parallel to the Magazine with content that is not good for the Magazine. With this I mean less graphically appealing, A&Q interviews, in-depth articles for News, and other things that don't go on the Magazine.

_The Magazine needs to have more defined deadlines, last one had 2 months of delay


Comments? Thoughts?

Theremin
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Leonardo wrote:

_We need to ping all the messengers and update the list of active ones

Sounds good. What are we going to define as "active"?

Leonardo wrote:

_if there are still Cavern Criers we will try to change how they work, making them a bit more scheduled

Sounds good.

Leonardo wrote:

_we could run a series of issues parallel to the Magazine with content that is not good for the Magazine. With this I mean less graphically appealing, A&Q interviews, in-depth articles for News, and other things that don't go on the Magazine. 

Not sure what we're trying to accomplish with that one. I would prefer to discuss that at a meeting with more members present.

Leonardo wrote:

_The Magazine needs to have more defined deadlines, last one had 2 months of delay

We already set deadlines for each issue, none of which we have ever met. (This was also true for the newsletter, the newspaper, and the special issue.) With no real way to enforce the deadlines, I am open to suggestions...

Leonardo wrote:

Comments? Thoughts?

I have set up a Doodle poll for a magazine meeting http://www.doodle.com/dpap6qp9cwsi4vse

I would prefer we use the Doodle option in the future, as the option of simply picking a date seemed to have no more success than the poll. If we are going to operate as a "members will decide most matters" guild, I believe we should allow the members to at least participate in the selection of when a meeting should take place.

Lunanne
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The problem with that is that with the low amount of members regurlarly visiting the forums, doodles are simply not filled in and the possible dates go by in the wait. 

 

The idea of the second issue was to be more open to Q&A and (slightly more) opnionated articles and maybe also some not very serious ones, alike the action news Ki mail. Just something fun light to read and easier for explorers to supply things for. 

kaeebonrai
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re: doodle for future meetings - The last time we tried that, it failed.

I'm all for set times from here on out. Just please, for the love of god, do it on a saturday.

I'm also definitely for the secondary series of issues. I may even contribute (gasp!). Hopefully this will be under Lunanne's Leadership.

Active should be defined as people actually doing stuff - in the case of liasons, I'd recommend it be "keeping in contact (hopefully close contact, if there's no exact guild business, maybe just building a "relationship" (as in, getting to know the relevant people)) with the guild they are the liason to" So, for example, I'd /hope/ the GoW liason would spend time with the GoW leadership (say, in IRC), or on the GoW forums. In my case, I'd be spending time with the H'uru guys. And I do. >.>

The magazine /really/ needs more people talking about what they're doing, at least. If deadlines don't work, maybe actual *communication* might be nice. There's been stuff brought up, re: SR and Jadawin a while back... Last I saw, there's been no communication regarding this, at least not in the messenger forums. For a guild who's primary goal is communication - our internal communication isn't terribly good. =(

Theremin
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As you all know, I like to do things for a reason, and will argue at great length items I am passionate about. I do, however, listen to counter-arguments that present their case and often change my mind/position.

Doodle: Last time it failed, and I believe only 3 people showed up? This time only 3 people showed up? It worked successfully a number of times previously, why are we abandoning it after 1 "failure"? Kaelis- what if we can't do them on a Saturday? I would very much like a chance for you to participate at least some of the time. Not everyone is going to make every meeting, and while the All Guilds meeting is scheduled for the same time every month, there they are dealing with hundreds of different schedules, and it would just be too unwieldy to run a Doodle. I believe we are small enough to have the flexibility to accomodate differing schedules.

Secondary issues: I detect a lot of bitterness and resentment toward my style of editorship (and no worries, I'm not offended by it! :)). I demand a lot from my contributors, and I understand that bothers some people. In RL, I have had a lot of my work rejected for various reasons, some of my work I've been asked to rewrite, while others have been edited and changed, depending on the needs of the publication or production. What I want to accomplish with the magazine is not to just collect some stuff people have written and put a fancy cover on it, but produce an excellent quality publication that truly looks like people have put some thought and effort into. An editor will offend people because his/her job is to edit. I am not adverse to people questioning or discussing how their article will fit into the magazine. Some ideas that I rejected initially for future isssues were argued by those who originally pitched them, and they convinced me they could produce a good quality article from it. (Nothing has happened since then). Lunanne presented me with some good points concerning my interview with Tweek, and then made some excellent changes to it. She also produces excellent articles that need very little editing. I trust her, and am not against her (or others) editing my own work. If explorers just want whatever they write to be published verbatim, they can do so on the forums.

Q&A is easy, and in the opinion of most RL editors, is lazy. They consist of mostly the same line of questions which tell very little about the person. Opinion articles are also easy, because it's just what I think about something based on whatever facts I choose to present. I can (and frequently!) do this on the forums. To present an issue from the Guild of Messengers with articles that express an opinion I think defeats our purpose as Messengers. Do we want to become a political Guild, and take sides on issues? I'd prefer not (and I understand the rhetoric that everyone and every organization does in some way or another take a side...).

I don't deal in speculation and rumors, there are no secret meetings going on between myself and others. What you last read about Jadawin is exactly where it stands at this point. If I'm working on an article that someone involved in it has asked me to keep confidential, then I will.

I take no offense at pointed comments, I am more than willing to share my reasons for doing/thinking what I do, and I am also willing to listen to challenges as such. I am willing to reconsider and change my point of view. My goal with the magazine is not to make us feel good about ourselves, but to make others feel good about us. I want people to be impressed by the fact that you had an article published in the Magazine without even knowing what it's about.

Polgara
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Having been away for some time and reading the last posts I think a meeting is necessary and important. If not before then shortly after Lunannes holidays.

But I also would prefer to plan with Doodle. Give the people some days to fill in, so they have a chance to do so if they´re interested. After that choose the date. People not visiting the forum regularly can´t be a reason to change that, if they´re interesed in visting the meeting they have to have a look here - or you send them a pm about the poll. But to me that´s defintely better than just to set a date.

kaeebonrai
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Re: Doodle - The last time it failed the meeting was cancelled due to lack of interest. Not because 3 people showed up. Three people is more than none. Seems to me the set time system is working better. >.>

re: The magazine - This is a volunteer organisation. We're not professionals. And we don't need to be held to an extreme view of a professional's standard where it impedes the production of (good) content. Make good, readable content, that is enjoyable and relevant to the reader (the uru/myst community, such that it is). Don't make it like a glossy magazine, as we're never going to be like a glossy magazine. Its not going to happen. At all. Nevermind that /professional/ sites and magazines do the Q&A format all the bleeding time. Why the pants shouldn't we?

And may I note, if you're shrugging off offence as "i'm an editor, of course this will offend" you're /doing it wrong/, laddy. Nevermind some of the issues that snuck by with Tweek's interview, which the man himself was not terribly impressed with, and other problems I remember hearing about re: the previous issue of the magazine...

Let the guild try out this other way of doing things, and lets see how it turns out - the results will probably speak for themselves.

Lunanne
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Okay, this is going to be a long post, some things probably should have been told before but now I have time.

When I and Leonardo planned the meeting we decided to set a time for several reasons. The fact that doodle didn’t really work out last time and the fact that setting up a doodle and getting it filled in takes /time/ and we wanted a meeting fast. It was originally planned on Saturday but as Leonardo couldn’t come because of his birthday party we decided to move it to Sunday. This was probably wrong , but an exception in our minds, we wanted to plan it the next time on Saturday.
The reason why we want to have a set time is not necessarily because doodle doesn’t work. But because it takes a lot of time and effort from us. Time and effort we rather spend on more useful guild activities. We need to set up a doodle with times , check it regularly, PM(apparently) people who are not filling it in, keep an eye on the days a lot of people can and hope that a lot of people will have filled it in before the day has gone. This is fine when it’s a school break but when we are busy it is hard to remember and to keep track of. If people who said they would turn up fail to turn up it all feels rather useless. Apart from that we were worried about having already missed several meetings simply because we were busy and forgot. If we would set a day and time as guild, guild meetings would happen even when the councillors are too busy to organize one.

Theremin, it is not so much your editorship that makes me feel that another magazine might be fitting.  I’m sorry; I find it hard to explain my ideas about it. In my opinion the Go Magazine is fine (otherwise I wouldn’t work on it) but it is very much guild produced.  I would like to see a lighter publication that is more “for explorers by explorers” idea.  Of course articles need a certain quality, but for example the interviews in the OS special were an idea of Age, I just told him he was doing a good job, and while it was late it has been received fairly well. Those articles are opinionated but not flaming, especially the whole interviews.  But I know that is how the Guild of Writers think about things and why should they not be free to say that in a newspaper/magazine?  To provide an extreme example: here in the Netherlands newspapers will publish ideas/interviews/letters/ etc.  from the Party for Freedom(extreme racist political party) but that doesn’t mean those newspaper share those ideas or that they take sides. They are simply ensuring a basic human right, the freedom of speech and press.

Q&A is in my opinion not necessarily easy. It is a versatile format for both short and long articles that is often used in RL newspapers.  In my opinion articles should be accepted on quality not on format, so if an enthusiastic explorer makes an good Q&A interview about, let’s say, Heritage Night, I wouldn’t say no to it, or feel compelled to rewrite it.

My goal for the new publication would be rather simple. I want to make something interesting and funny people want to read that gives them an idea what other people in the community are doing, thinking & organizing. Nothing more, nothing less.

On the note of confidential articles, I would like to see these discussed in the private newspaper forum. In my opinion the people with access to it can be trusted to keep things silent especially when this is noted and I think it is good to discuss ideas and articles with others. 

Leonardo
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Definitely agree on the busy part of the Doodle poll. It would be good if we already have a fixed meeting date every month. It is not an uncommon thing to do. We arbitrarily chose a date because we had no useful datas from the previous Doodle. We can try and make a new Doodle poll for finding a good hour for future meeting and keep it fixed.

For the Magazine. It's ok to have good quality articles. But it seems to me that the result comes out too serious and aseptic, while it should be more funny and light.

Articles. Each content that is being worked for an issue should be at least listed on the Issue index, in the Guild Books. If it is confidential you can avoid putting in the title, or the name of who is working on it, but at least list in the index. Otherwise we have no clue that it exists, and we think that we only have 2 articles for the next issue while it's not true. Seeing that we have a full issue is good also for the mood of who is working on the Magazine.

Szark
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kaelisebonrai wrote:

Re: Doodle - The last time it failed the meeting was cancelled due to lack of interest. Not because 3 people showed up. Three people is more than none. Seems to me the set time system is working better. >.>

re: The magazine - This is a volunteer organisation. We're not professionals. And we don't need to be held to an extreme view of a professional's standard where it impedes the production of (good) content. Make good, readable content, that is enjoyable and relevant to the reader (the uru/myst community, such that it is). Don't make it like a glossy magazine, as we're never going to be like a glossy magazine. Its not going to happen. At all. Nevermind that /professional/ sites and magazines do the Q&A format all the bleeding time. Why the pants shouldn't we?

And may I note, if you're shrugging off offence as "i'm an editor, of course this will offend" you're /doing it wrong/, laddy. Nevermind some of the issues that snuck by with Tweek's interview, which the man himself was not terribly impressed with, and other problems I remember hearing about re: the previous issue of the magazine...

Let the guild try out this other way of doing things, and lets see how it turns out - the results will probably speak for themselves.

 

humm Gloosy professional magazine made by fans who had jobs reminds me of the good ole days of the http://www.thecaverntoday.com/archiver which had deadlines. What made it work was fans willing to help, pure dedication and respect for each member of the team as we all relied on each other to make it happen. When I say respect I mean unconditional respect knowing that if one person faultered then it would effect on the rest. When MOUL went so did the motivation hence its demise. But it had a driving force and that was Narym. I had so much respect for him I wanted to make sure I helped as much as I could. Yes we did it for others, seeing people liking it and getting something from it made the effort worth all the hours spent.

I have no idea of the solution and this is one of the reasons why I don't hang out as much as I did. I want to help like I did but I see no way to improve things or to make things happen without a work force. Plus there is always this sense of hosility in some peoples posts, I am just sick of it all really. It seems the few who are interested in helping are too busy and never come back.

 

I am so glad I had the oppotunity to be invovled with the Archiver, the old GoMe Newsletter and for the start of GO. Arr the good ole days. LOL

Nev'yn
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I'd like to make a motion for an internal guild meeting so we're all on the "same page" with all the recent events/changes going on. I also want to clarify job roles/expectation...(especially mine)....and to pitch some project ideas. 

| "The truth speaks for itself, I am just the messenger." -Lyta Alexander |

kaeebonrai
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A meeting might be nice - Luna, Leo: was any progress made re: a set time for the meetings? They usually happened about the same time, on the same day...

I'll probably manage to show up to this one, especially if it is in IRC =P

Leonardo
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Yeah, now that the active members are not just me and Luna a Guild Meeting is needed.

A fixed time for it has not been chosen because nobody tookk the poll. I am going to study all our previous meeting hours and make a proposal

Nev'yn
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I'll PM you my work schedule in "your time"/CET some time later today/tonight, also don't forget I'm usually sleeping sometime between  7amCET-NoonCET. (Aka 1amEST-6amEST). 

Edit: Why don't we just have meeting on third Sat of the month, "opposite" of the AGM? I assuming, of course, most of us are are reasonably free on Saturdays. Just a thought. (NN: Please don't throw things at me!!!) 

| "The truth speaks for itself, I am just the messenger." -Lyta Alexander |

Lunanne
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we actually used to have a meeting the week after AGM (on account of the Councillors going "It's AGM again already! We should plan a guild meeting! " :P)

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Obviously I'm from the New Greeters but I wouldn't mind being there on the accont of anything happening with the magazine. I have a few ideas for the New Greeters being a regular part of The Cavern Post in the future. If this meeting is JUST for internal affairs that's no problem at all.


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