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Guild policies - A record of lessons learned

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Sophia
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But but but but obviously y'all haven't seen my booooooooooooooootifool tootorials yet! On modding, banning, teasers and spoilers... tis all there. Patience for ONE MORE DAY, my friends, I know your nerves are frayed but allow me to fray them a tiny bit more still. Watch that secret thread for more spam from me :lol:

You think you see me but I'm not really here

Marten
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Nanouk,

Here is your screenshot with a little emphasis. Apparently the link is on the LEFT side of the page for you.

Veralun
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Thanks Sophia. Did not know that.
So see my offer to write a workaround as not written.

.......................CCN.........................

Szark
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I found it!

EDIT: Sorry I didn't see that Marten had posted a similar Picture until now. DOH!

Sophia
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Veralun wrote:
Thanks Sophia. Did not know that.
So see my offer to write a workaround as not written.

Hehe no no Veralun, you're not getting off that light :lol: I am SURE there will be a need for additional tutorials in the new site, and we'd all be very grateful for who-ever volunteers for more... I was only teasing :wink:

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Leonardo
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Nanouk_Metal wrote:
Leonardo wrote:
If you have the right permissions you should be able to access the Moderator Control Panel from a link placed at the top right corner of each page, just under the "* FAQ * Members * Logout [ Nanouk_Metal ]"

Cannot see it. Check my image.

Oh, sorry. I said right because on GoMa Forums we have it on the right side. Here it's on the left side, as Marten showed in your pic. :mrgreen:

Nanouk_Metal
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Even if my orinal request was about a tutorial, this option is better than no tutorial

Thanks to Marten, Leo and Veralun for their good will.

Me hoping that Veralun will come up with a good tutorial (with many images.....of course :!: ) in case I still will be part of the Anti-Spam Squad on the new site. :mrgreen:


Marten
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Lesson 5

On the internet, the ability to do something (like linking to another site) often seems to mean implied permission or invitation.  It is easy to rationalize that if people don't want their content to be linked to via other websites, they either should require a password to access the content, or it shouldn't be published on the internet at all. After all, when someone puts news on a webpage, or posts it in a forum - doesn't that mean the person desires for other people to see that news?

BUT... that doesn't mean that we can not or should not apply rules of courtesy.

Recently, for example, we've spoken about incorporating the RSS feeds of other websites into ours, and at the moment we've incorporated the Myst Online feed into our front page.  I'm very enthusiastic about making other RSS feeds available through our site.  But, we all need to be cautious - myself included - that we have asked permission before we do so.  In the case of the MOUL feed, for example, we should be asking Chogon or RAWA if it is OK to do so, rather than simply doing it.

Similarly, we need to be careful about Events on our calendar.  Two parts to this - First, we need to be more careful about clear attribution.  When mousing over events in the calendar, the only links appear to be back to our own website.  When looking at "D'ni Cocktail Party", Donahoo's name isn't even mentioned.  It might be mentioned on the page when a reader clicks a link, but I think that's too late ... I think we need to get the event organizers names onto the calendar itself.  Second, when we add events to our calendar, we need to ask the event organizers if it is OK to report on their events.  I think we have done this sometimes, but maybe not every time.  But it needs to be a habit to ask, we should always ask.  I spoke to ghaelen recently and asked if we should publish the Guild of Healers events on our calendar.  She politely requested that we NOT do so.  She has some good reasons for this, and though of course it goes against my desire to report "the news", we are also first and foremost members of a community where we need to get along with our neighbors, and build positive relationships.  Please don't view this as an appeal to political correctness - there may come a day where we feel the need to report on some event or activity that could make someone very unhappy, and we will need the strength and will to do so in such a time.  But now is not that time, now we can work cooperatively with others and we should work hard to foster a postive image of our organization so that when an unpleasant day comes and we need to stand up to someone who might not want us to report something important, we will have the community behind us and not against us.

Last, but not least, posts on our own feed need to be very clear in naming attribution too.  Some of our feed entries are fine... others could still bear some improvement.  While it might seem somewhat redundant to say an event is being held in the Karaoke Bevin, and to say that this news comes to us from members of the Karaoke Bevin... we should do just that.  We should be clear and consistent in indicating from whom we are getting our news.  As with events, we should not rely upon the visitor to our site to "click through for more information" to learn whose name is on the news.

 

 

Andros
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Good points.

Would you go a far as to say that in that news item( http://www.guildofmessengers.com/content/cyan-are-working-paradox-and-cr... ), we should have the permission from Chogon and Paradox before posting the news?

Kalypso: #85553

Leonardo
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I agree about mentioning the people involved in the organization of the events and News.

RSS Feeds: well they are explicitly made for spreading news. However, I'll PM RAWA for asking permission.

About permissions to post things. I don't think most of the News need an explicit permission to be posted on our site (that would also slow down all the process by days). Many times it is clear that News can be posted to the public.

The thing is different when you talk about Events. Someone may not want his event to be spread to the public (for a number of reasons: doesn't want too many people, it is a restricted event only for certain people, etc), so it's better if we ask permission. But there are exceptions for that too, there are certain events like big parties that are explicitly made to attract the greater amount of people they can get (CCCP, Under the Roots Party, D'ni Cocktail Party, St. Pats Parade). When you see "Everyone is invited to attend" or writings similar to that in the right context I don't think we need any explicit permission.

However, all of this must be applied with common sense. That's why News require manual approval before they are posted. Each Messenger should always consider the things above and the Website Rules before approving something

Marten
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Leonardo wrote:
I agree about mentioning the people involved in the organization of the events and News.

RSS Feeds: well they are explicitly made for spreading news.  However, I'll PM RAWA for asking permission.

About permissions to post things. I don't think most of the News need an explicit permission to be posted on our site (that would also slow down all the process by days). Many times it is clear that News can be posted to the public.

I agree with everything you've said above, but I wanted to highlight the above part of your response and comment on it, because although I think you are 100% right, that doesn't mean that everyone else in the community will agree, and that is a problem I think we need to be aware of.

You, and I, and I think most people who are part of the "internet generation," would all say "Well of course, it is obvious that RSS is designed for spreading news.  And if someone has posted to a forum, it is obvious that the person wants their news spread around."  But what is obvious to us is not always obvious to everyone else.

Some people have a a different sense of ettiquette.  The Myst community has people of all generations in it, and a mixture of cultures from around the world too.  So, we have people in our community who are using tools like RSS feeds and forums but not really understanding those tools in the same way that we understand.  When we link to the work of others, even though we are driving traffic to their events or their websites, despite that we are trying to help, these people can misinterpret our efforts as infringing upon their work and their territory, and they feel that we are stealing away their audience.  These people see us as interfering rather than assisting.  When this happens, these people will say very negative things about us, and after that happens, it is going to be a lot harder for us to workin with the community than if we had simply taken a little extra time to ask permission first.

Yes, what I am asking could introduce some delays to our reporting on the news.  But there are two points I think we should consider about that:

(1)  If we request permission but receive NO ANSWER in a reasonable time frame, I think we can effectively argue that we provided an opportunity to object, and that as a news organization we choose to treat silence as consent.

(2) If people want their news published through us without a delay, they can be clearer in their postings that they want the news spread (Like you said, "Everyone invited to attend" is a pretty clear indication), or they can bring the news directly to us in which case we'll be happy to help get the information out faster.

All of the above that I am asking does not apply to news we pick up from outside of the community.  News we pick up from the Spokane Review, or from Kotaku, or other sites that aren't really a part of our community should be OK to post right away.  I'm just saying that within our community, we take into consideration that we are working with a lot of other groups and people who have different levels of expertise, and different expectations, than we can expect from other genuine news organizations.

(As a final thought, I'll add that even genuine news organizations don't always understand when they are being helped, not hurt, by another site linking to their work.  Take a look at the contorversies surrounding Google News.  Sites are unhappy that a number of people read the summaries on Google News, and never click through to the sites where the news actually originated; they see Google as depriving them of revenue because people don't click through.  They don't seem to understand that if Google doesn't list their news, they might get even fewer visitors because they'll lose the click-throughs they already get from Google.)

 

semplerfi
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Marten wrote:
(1)  If we request permission but receive NO ANSWER in a reasonable time frame, I think we can effectively argue that we provided an opportunity to object, and that as a news organization we choose to treat silence as consent.

Just my opinion, please do not get me wrong. I am not being critical of the point in it self but am concerned with the possible perceptions of this point being considered a threat. “If you do not respond to us we will post your information with out your permission.”
 
If you adopted this point it needs to be made very clear in your requests for said permission and placed boldly all over this website.
 
Another good place for this point is in every Messengers’ siggy. 
______________________________________________________
“If we request permission but receive NO ANSWER in a reasonable time frame, we have effectively provided an opportunity for you to object, and as a news organization we choose to treat your silence as consent.”
______________________________________________________
Andros
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Semplerfi raises a good point.

I do not think that events should have that policy (slience is consent). If that means fewer events listed on the calendar, so be it. That is a missed opportunity on the event organizer to promote the event.

Kalypso: #85553

Marten
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Interesting and reasonable counterpoints.

The rules I am putting forward are intended to be a compromise, not a throwing-in of the proverbial towel.  I'm saying we should give an inch, not a mile.  If you post an event publicly, and then you don't tell others that you want to manage the spread of that information yourself, it's really not anyone's fault but your own when it gets plastered over the internet by well-meaning helpers.  So while I am saying "we should ask permission", I am not willing to carry the responsibility of fault for people who do not communicate their intentions and wishes in a clear manner.  We _are_ a news organization.  People who are upset that we are trying to spread their news are victims of their own naivety, and the only threat to them is themselves.  If we wait a day, and there's no reply from the event organizer - HECK YES we should report the event.

And I don't think we need disclaimers to have such a policy.  That's overcompensating for others' lack of common sense - it's like a warning on a coffee cup that the contents might burn you because, you know, they're hot?  You can't expect a coffee cup to chill its contents before pouring them on your lap, and you can't expect a news organization not to report the news when you didn't ask them not to.

EDIT:  The message above is not exactly the one I originally wrote, which was... a bit less polite.  Sorry about that.

 

 

 

Leonardo
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Well I think that usually Common Sense is just enough than many rules one above the other.

e.g.

I just found this Tsogahl Run planned by CCN on the MOUL Forums. I decided not to post it (althought they wrote "all are welcome") because a Tsogahl Run requires a little amount of people to work better (less lag for Door Caller and Cloth Pushers and for the Door itself XD). So I guessed that placing it here would have just attracted too many people and I didn't post.

Andros
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Maybe a a quick Pm or reply saying:

"Do you want the GoMe to spread the news of your event?"

..would be enough.

Yes=> We post

No/No reply: Don't post.

Kalypso: #85553

semplerfi
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Quote:
EDIT:  The message above is not exactly the one I originally wrote, which was... a bit less polite.  Sorry about that.
 
I shared an honest personal concern in the form of an opinion that was acknowledged by another as a good point.
 
Sorry but now I am bit confused. Why would you feel the need to respond in an un-polite way and then post about it?
 
Was I being rude posting my opinion in an open topic on an open forum? Was my post perceived as being rude? What did I do to provoke such a rude response?
 
I am sorry I do not understand.
 
 
Andros
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Semplefi. I am pretty sure Marten did not reply in a less tactful way TO you. In fact, you raised a valid point that is also an echo of a source of complications that we are currently having in the guild having nothing to do with you. So please take no offense because the little frustration the guild is having is not directed at you, nor it is at a particular person.

Kalypso: #85553

Marten
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Andros is correct.  I did not find your post to be rude at all, sempler... and I don't think my original response would have offended you, but it might have bothered some of the people I've thus far hinted as "not part of the internet generation" because I laid fault on their naivety in a more heavy-handed manner.

Sirlazurus
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I think all this is good to know of.

What can i tell more this is somethnig that i not know many but i can tell my opinion that is good to know about it.

Problably will never be at this topic again and to me some subjects as for politics its somethnig i dont like and never did so i think i will pass this.

I still think it is good u guys talk about policies,but dont ask me to come here and talk about it,cause that will not hapend and  there is nothing i can do and im sry .

The Exelency of Desteny is Uru  and Discovery.

 MY KI :   959586

Andros
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That is ok Sir. ;) You don't have to talk about things you are not comfortable with.

Kalypso: #85553

Marten
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I don't like politics either.  Politics has been slowly killing my love of Uru, and it has driven others away as well.  But, I believe this guild needs to work together to keep the politics to a minimum.

You don't need to discuss the things in this thread if you don't want to.  But, I hope all Messengers will read the things in this thread, and take them into consideration.

Thank you for taking time to read this, too.

 

Sirlazurus
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Thx for understand me Marten.

But like i told u guys this is something i canot put here and i sry

The Exelency of Desteny is Uru  and Discovery.

 MY KI :   959586

Lunanne
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 I've been following this discussion with great interest. It is a difficult ... thing.  I think that we indeed should ask people before posting events or news. About the "non reply is consent" method I don't know. I think that when an event is like three weeks away, a day may be short. If it is posted some days before it is early enough I think. But then you have this "grey" area namely when should you wait and/or when should you post. And I don't think there can be clear cut rules for that .

 

I hope this is clear, English is not my native language so I couldn't always find the right words.

Andros
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Lunanne, you were very clear. ;)

It is indeed a difficult issue without a perfect solution unfortunately. :(

Kalypso: #85553

semplerfi
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My primary concern is for posts on other forums outside of the MO:UL forum. Anything posted on MO:UL & DRC forums is fair game in my opinion. Posts on other forums outside of the MO:UL & DRC forums are a different matter. On other forums is where, IMHO, caution needs to be exercised.  

 
IMHO just because a person and or forum is naïve and or "not part of the internet generation" is not just cause for laying fault in a heavy-handed manner. Putting one’s personal value system on others only leads to irreversible negativity. I do not think this is the image the Guild of Messengers wants.
 
I know you all will do what you all think is best. I will support and have tried to support the GoMe in my own way from day one of the guild. I just ask think ‘cause and effect’ for the long haul.
 
Does community serve you or do you serve the community?
 
Thank you for letting me share my opinions & concerns. I wish nothing but the best for the community and GoMe.
Marten
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semplerfi wrote:

Does community serve you or do you serve the community?

Our thanks to you, semplerfi.  Especially for the point above - that is a really, really, really good way of putting things into perspective.

Szark
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I have never had any doubt about that Semp I used to server the community....shame they didn't embrace it. Like I have said a numurous occassions if we help one or 100 it was all the same to me.

Andros
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An extension of the Lesson #5 that Marten posted.

When I posted the Rand interview, I screwed up (not the first time though lol). I posted the whole interview, something at that time that seemed like a good thing because after all, we want to give the full news and not half of it right? But I was wrong. Someone contacted us

Instead of posting the entire Ten Ton Hammer interview on your site, can you
please chop it off half-way and link "Continue reading this interview" to our
site? We can't provide interviews if we don't get paid; We don't get paid
unless people visit our site. Thanks!

Ouch! How come such thing did not cross my mind. The last thing I want is to lessen the revenue of the website featuring the interview. So I wrote them back:

Not a problem. The post has been edited. Sorry about that. It won't happen again.

Kalypso

So I take the full blame and I want to apologize to the GoMe and to Ten Ton Hammer.

Kalypso: #85553

Julee D
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I am learning quite a lot around here!  Over at GoW, as you may know, someone has recently announced an "unofficial contest" and posted the news here on the GoMe.  I saw how Leonardo handled it and really liked his posting over on the GoW describing how the GoMe could help publicize the event.  I PM'd the originator reiterating what we could do, and invited him to shoot me messages on contest progress if he wants to (to save him the trouble of self-posting over here) - essentially trying to demonstrate our "value-added service".    I'm working with our motto: "See a need, fill a need".  I'm interpreting us as a service organization, facilitating the work of the larger user community by offering our channels of communication (which I think are amazing!).  My thinking is that if we can demonstrate how helpful our channels of communication can be, more folks will think to work with us going forward.   That's my approach, at least.

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