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Leonardo
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Wait, your posts are based of the assumption that ICly we don't have the knowledge of Writing Linking Books. But if that was true, what was the point for the DRC to set up a new Guild of Writers? So, we can safely say we are able to Write

Now, for the Guilds Hall. Every Age should follow RAWA guidelines in particular Rule 3:

3 - Writers must not reveal "new" information about characters, places, groups, etc. used by Cyan. (see link for more in-depth explanation)

and it must follow the FCAL. This means it's better if we don't touch the Guilds Hall since it is part of Cyan's storyline (see Prologue) and we know Cyan has plans for it

Szark
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Leonardo wrote:

This means it's better if we don't touch the Guilds Hall since it is part of Cyan's storyline (see Prologue) and we know Cyan has plans for it

Do they? Please share I must have missed that info. :D Which is not like me (the past me). These days I don't check the forums like I once did.

Leonardo
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It not exactly something that they have said recently. But we know they have a project for the Guild Hall, remember the sketches we saw at Cyan during last year Mysterium.

If I remember correctly what is written in a FCA Licence, you should modify your work if it resuts to contraddict any work of Cyan, meaning that if they publish the Guild Hall in the future we may need to change our Age.

kaeebonrai
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Hokay...

 

ICly Writers have been writing /Ages/ not just books. And have been doing so since 2004-ish.

 

The DRC has been ignored many times as well, and the explorers have restored many places in D'ni, and there are a number of IC groups who have, infact, restored locations in D'ni/Ages Written by the D'ni.

 

RAWA's guidelines /specifically/ allow locations in the Cavern, as well.

 

Some IC players, notable ones at that, have been down in the D'ni caverns for since 2003, if not before. (with short breaks where they went up with everyone else, then managed to find a way back down, during the closures) And, amusingly enough, the starting story for MO:ULagain was intended to recognise this.

 

The DRC have outright come out and said that they consider themselves just explorers like us, now. =)

 

Also.. uh.. Phil's relto is nighttime, but... not flooded =P

 

The cleft book was yeesha's, btw >.>

 

As for the descriptive book of Earth/D'ni - its generally believed it is either on terahnee or on D'ni itself (which is very possible, canon-wise) (and, on that note, it lead directly to the caverns under new mexico, probably somewhere on ae'gura, if not the great zero itself (probably not the great zero, as the zero was usually not the link-in point, but rather some other location that was felt to be important in some way)

 

Canon-districts are generally a nono, and generally have the possibility of violating RAWA's guidelines...

Silenia
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I know it was her, just pointing stuff out in the futile hope of getting a surface based camp :P

 

I stretch logic like silly putty. Even when I'm wrong :P

=-Silenia-=

I've got a dollar, I've got a dollar, I've got a dollar - hey, hey, hey, hey.

Theremin
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I've been following this discussion with great interest, as it intrigues me very much. I've composed several responses, which I've ended up deleting... LOL

My gut instinct is to stay away from anything representing the Guild Hall, because the Guild of Messengers is one of the few guilds actually mentioned in canon, and we potentially risk not only contradicting existing canon, but also future canon created by Cyan, which would then place us in the category of presuming to call ourselves the "official" Messengers, when we have no place to do so. (Kind of like those "official" websites that offer unverified information...)

The idea of a surface location I find personally appealing, and feel maybe we should discuss that a bit more. Before we go much further with the overall discussion, I would propose/suggest some things:

What is the vision for this age? Do we imagine it as a social gathering place? A place where we will distribute news and information? A library of sorts?

Will we attempt to make this fit with canon? Will there be a backstory to this place?

IMHO, I'm not sure another place to either gather socially or collect news which is available from our forum is a compelling reason to visit. We'll have a number of explorers who come to "check it out", but will feel no compulsion to return. (I don't visit the various pubs in D'ni for the same reason.) I would offer we start a discussion as to incorporating a bit of story into the age, to make it a bit more interesting...

Leonardo
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You would be surprised to know how many explorers in the cavern don't even know where to look at for News. The trailing point for the News Age would be having our News In Cavern, where all those explorers can find them without having to exiit the game and open a browser.

Then we can develop a backstory too, but the reason to return to the Age shold be getting the news

Silenia
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I just really wish we could get our hands on a Cyan person with some actual permission granting ability. It would be nice to be able to use some of their IP.

What would be cool is getting their approval for a bahro cloth to either a surface location, or maybe even a old crushed messenger tracked vehicle in the cavern. Why do we have to just assume our GoM would need a freestanding facility?

My thoughts on the surface location were a forward ops base. With tents and such. Well the concept could easily be translated to an in cavern location. To my knowledge Cyan has already provided a potential idea in bothe the Myst Games, the Books, and in D'ni itself here. And thats in Descent. Yes I know we cant really touch Descent due to RAWA guidelines and the potential fact that...I think Ubi still owns rights to it. Im not sure. But with their blessing to use a "concept" from their IP would be ideal. 

...Correct me if I am wrong but Descent was simply the great shaft leading from the exploratory cavern to the surface, where the Council said... hey screw this slow slope nonsense, bring the four great machines in and lets punch out of here. We also get a taste of the Messengers in "Book of Ti'ana" with their little ugly tanks. We also know that they built "rest" caverns between the areas with doors serving as airlocks. Logic assumes this exists not only in the tunnels post "Descent" but also in other D'ni tunneling efforts. All but the oldest of them would share certain... design features. So we don't have to put the place there but in a similar cavern.

We are not an official Guild in that we aren't like that, but we are humans. Humanity loves its symbolism. So why would we not hunt down an area with a defunct messenger vehicle and set up a camp near it? Thats some serious symbolic stuff there. There is already a description in the books, and if we had the blessing of Cyan we could use it. Or we could just, make an area like an old rest stop for the Messenger vehicles. That way we wouldn't even need an actual model of that. Which means we couldn't get in trouble with the IP because... its not actually there. We just imply it was, at some point... long ago :P

=-Silenia-=

I've got a dollar, I've got a dollar, I've got a dollar - hey, hey, hey, hey.

LostThyme
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I just got around to reading this thread all of the way through. I figured since it came up in that meeting in Kirel that I should get around to it.

 

I really like the idea of having it Surface-side. That would help establish the connection with the real-world (I can hear the outcry now, though. "But this isn't anything like the Cavern! These people have printing presses and coffee machines and... doors!). I think it would be a creative idea to follow through on. I also think it should be a good place for meeting, readily available. You not only want people to go there, you also want them to want to come back and bring their friends and family.

Marten
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*bump*

The person to contact at Cyan about using their IP is Tony Fryman, at legal -at- cyan.com.

As long as you are not asking him questions all the time, you might get an answer once in a while. :)

kaeebonrai
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@Marten: theoretically - yes.

 

You'll also find that many "FCAL" requests in recent times have gone answered, too. >.> Or at least when it comes to Ages. =P

 

I really thought I had responded to stuff here, recently... desperately need to collect my thoughts, and respond. >.>

 

I think I need to sort stuff out, before I focus too much more on this, for now. This is currently in the limbo of needing some things that aren't possible to plan for, right now. >.> Additional issues are added by this being something for another group other than the GoW/related groups. Because no one else does things quite like the GoW/etc (note: I don't expect us ("us" meaning messengers) to be like that, at all, I'm just saying it adds complications.)


Re: Theremin's question about fitting in with Canon... the plan is to fit it in with Canon, yes, or more correctly, to not /violate/ canon. As in, it should fit within the established "lore" of D'ni/Uru. I, like many other Age Writers have no intention of breaking canon. >.>

AaronAKAAtrus
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i also think it should be in the cavern, with a table for each guild, ant a statue! 

Leonardo
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Dot contacted me to know if we would be interested in adding an "office" in Ahra Pahts, in a shell near the link-in point, using the Internet Access features to send infos from our website to the Age dinamically in a Journal. She proposed a design similar to Shell 415 developed by the Devokan Trust Group.

I invited her to read this thread and discuss

Lunanne
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That sounds interesting, although I think we should more use our own design. I was/am still planning to include the magazine in my shell and will give it another try whenever I get time.


The idea of an updated journal via internet is interesting but most people will have disabled the network access package, since most people use Drizzle and enabling is strongly disadvised because of the "insecurity" (It is actually just as safe as surfing the internet so it is kind of ...)


edit; I might even make my own shell a temporarily home. hmm

Leonardo
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Yes I agree, most people have it disabled because Drizzle discourages its use.

But probably the shards don't have it disabled, at least I think DeepIsland doesn't, so we would have base in the Shard.

Oh I didn't know you have a Shell in Ahra Pahts, Luna :D

kaeebonrai
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I am still interested and working on our news location, tech issues have been the major stopping blocks so far, and they are mostly resolved.

I do not feel doing a location in Ahra Pahts is a good thing, either.

I have raised more detailed concerns regarding this to Luna, informally.

 

To reiterate, I am still working on this and a number of tech issues have recently been resolved. I have not /stopped/ working on this, for that matter. There have just been no meaningful info beyond tech experiements to post - so I have not posted regarding this. However the news location is one of a few major projects I'm working on at present..

Theremin
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On the surface of things, I think it would be a good idea. Many groups have "offices" in different locations, I would see this as one of them. Understandably if Dot were providing this for us, she would be influential within the design. that's not to say we couldn't ask if we could help with it.

What sort of timeframe for delivery is she looking at? Is this something that could be implemented in a relatively short time? What would she expect from us regarding its continued functioning? I myself have not been to Ahra Pahts to see what it consists of.

Lunanne
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One of the main problems with Ahra pahts is that it is very unatractive place, often empty. Not a lot of people visit it. So it is not a great location for something like this.

Theremin
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Lunanne wrote:

One of the main problems with Ahra pahts is that it is very unatractive place, often empty. Not a lot of people visit it. So it is not a great location for something like this.

I wouldn't see it as the only place for this type of thing, nor as the main venue for it. If Dot were expecting us to maintain it, I woul definitely make sure someone was willing to do it before we committed.

If it's simply a place to sort of advertise ourselves, I would say to go for it. A somewhat hidden, not often accessed area sort of appeals to me as it seems in keeping with the D'niverse; one discovers hidden "treasures" all the time. However, if you're already working on something for Ahra Pahts that you epect to have out soon, then I would say skip it.

Leonardo
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Great to know Kaelis!

Yes, Dot's idea would not be an Age with the features we discussed with Kaelis, it would be more of an "outside office". Probably with a link to our News Age when we have it

Lunanne
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I think we should slow down a little.

I suggest that I make a "temporary" place in my shell. I can spare space for a table, coffeemachine, magazines,journals and notebooks and all. (and chairs of course. How could I forget the chairs).

I can also work on an official shell but that would then take some what more time, but look better and we can maybe tryout some designs and such before we decide on a final look.

Remember we did without a shell or an "office" until know. We can cope for a while longer without making hasty decisions.

Theremin
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Again, I'm asking for timeframes. when does dot propose to have this set up? when do you propose to have yours set up, Luna? I agree planning is always great, but sometimes we just need to move forward. If we just simply don't want to accept Dot's offer, then let's kindly tell her so and forget about it.

kaeebonrai
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I feel Luna's own shell would be more appropriate, and I'd be happy to support Luna in any way she feels necessary with her own shell, and a new shell for the guild, if we decide we want to do that.

Personally, though, I don't really feel that we even need an Ahra Pahts shell... Ahra Pahts is mostly a failed experiment, in the eyes of many Writers...

Its a great idea, but a terrible implementation.

I also don't feel there's anything to /gain/ for the effort involved in creating this office in ahra pahts.. just a lot of work. (And, as I said, no appreciable benefit for it, either)

A news location I can see a benefit, but not a random Ahra Paht's shell, to be honest...

Lets consider what we would actually want it for more than:

"well.. uh.. someone asked us if we wanted them to do one..."

"uh, well, its a shell, yanno?"

Because it doesn't really look like this is being thought out very well at all.

---

All in all, I'm trusting Luna's judgement, after all, we did vote her into the council for a /reason/, right

 

EDIT: as a side note, I'm /very/ much against the idea of this being purely to advertise the guild if we do it. That will NOT  help anything at all, using a location in a fan age purely for advertisement. And as a Writer, I am very, very much against that idea and all that it will lead to/encourage.

If we do this, it must have a function beyond advertising the Guild.

I vote turn down the proposal, and if we do it at all, I would vote that Luna should be involved.

1) She is a representative member of the Guild of Writers.

and

2) She is a GM and Council member here.

This isn't about timeframes at all, this is about doing things right, we have no /need/ for a shell, so decisions regarding this are not a /all/ time limited nor is it necessary for them to be decided right now, or, infact, ever.

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I'm not a GoMe member, but here's my $0.02 on Pahts: FOR THE LOVE OF YAHVO DON'T!!!

Pahts was a great concept, but it's terribly broken. The last I heard it was still nearly unplayable on lower-end machines, and until the art refresh is done (if it's ever done), the place is simply a giant maze. Pahts simply isn't a fun place to go, and until it's fun it's of little use as an advertising location. I'm not saying that everyone should give up on Pahts - I'm just saying I feel it's wrong for the GoMe at this point in time.

I'd suggest that if a "public" location is desired, someone work with Diafero on getting a new PRP for the City onto DI, so that you can have a tent or newsstand in Ae'Gura.

 

EDIT: If Pahts ever reaches its goal of being a bustling city, this whole post will probably be irrelevent.

Tweek
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Yes I'd be inclined to agree with Branan.


Having something slipped into DI or having your own Age tailored to it would be a better idea than using Pahts.

Lunanne
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We can probably get a new prp in the city for the DI shard without a lot of problems.

For the non technical people:

We can add object(s) for example a tent or a newsstand or so, with the magazine/news in some fashion at a place in the city on the DI shard. Whether this would also be included on the UAM shard would have to be discussed with Dustin.


The only problem I see with this is that inclusion on the official Cyan shard will probably be impossible. Unless... Maybe if we sent them a lot of pizza...

Polgara
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Thanks Luna for the translation for non technical people - at the start I thought "what the hell is she talking about?". Not for the first time in this thread I must admit. I've just visited the first fan ages a few days ago (very impressive) - so this whole topic with shards or Drizzle etc. is completely new to me.

But I would say that, if there are enough players using these shards and the work is not too much - the smallest place is better than nothing. Even if it's not included on the official shard of Cyan. But as I´ve said - I have no idea about the amount of work to be done.

Lunanne
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Time it takes to make depends a bit on what we want. I have a pretty good idea of the general how-to, but I currently have no idea /what/ to make ans what it should look like so ideas are welcome.

 

I talked to Diafero and got the green light, we can do everything we want I think, including html download stuff and dynamic updatable books. In other words we can access website/rss feed and make easy changable books/magazines.


edit:

I currently got this in my shell(ignore the floor , it still needs sometweaking)


apart from the magazine, I was thinking about some notes/teasers on the next one, but what do you think?

Edit2: uuh what do you think? *pokes the guild*

Polgara
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Looks nice - but it seems to be a bit low for a table with information. But that can be wrong with no avatar as a comparison - just my first impression.

But I still have to ask what is possible. You wrote "easy changeable books" - is it possible then to make sort of an imager (like those in a neighborhood) with something like "Next event:..........." They would have to be bigger so you can read the text from farther away. With RSS it should be easy to keep them up-to-date - right?

Maybe our calendar in the shape of a book, maybe a stand with the magazine you can rotate (to get to your language)  -  -  -  -  back to reality
Just some ideas.

Lunanne
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I meant that they could be dynamically updated like the ones in shell 415. They get the content from internet in some fashion. But an imager would be possible too, easier probably then the IC explanation I would have to come up with :P Keep in mind that this is like a "tempory office/ coffee corner hang out/place to discuss guild stuff"  It is not meant to be a place to "spread news" due to it being in Ahra pahts. Now making a place like that for the city on DI , that would be a nice idea. If someone knows what it should look like.

 

yeah the table may have to be changed a bit, the reason being I made it as a "sturdy" table in a separate file without reference for height etc. It is actually rather high

 

Edit : *pokes* uh guys are you all alright? Or did I scare you away?