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Uniform Translations

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Polgara
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Ron and I have talked about the differences between our translations and that we don´t want to confuse the explorers with it. So we came up with the idea of a sort of a dictionary for the most important stuff. It can be used as a guide for translations and also from other explorers just looking for a special translation.

If this is interesting for other languages as well we can perhaps create a new Guild book on the top or in misc. Or maybe there´s a completely different possibility.

Lyrositor
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I like this idea. I'm having trouble with "Greeters" for example, so for now I just don't translate it. A dictionary sounds like a really good idea to me.

 

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Nev'yn
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Umm...I realize I'm not "officially" on the translation team...But, I'm familar with this issue.

For Russian, the online translator calls the "Guild of Messengers", for instance, the "Guild of Heralds". The Greeters are "Guild of Those Meeting", which looks really odd to me.  Not to apply too much "logic" to situation...Has the team considered looking at OHB's GULP/(Uru Localization Project) site  to see what has the highest votes for the closest matching terminology? I know it's an extra step for all you...and therefore not best solution.

My apologies in advance if I created a larger problem, than being a real help in solving it. Just to be safe, I am now going to head back to hide in GoMe's Archive of Guild Books. Be seeing you!!!

 

| "The truth speaks for itself, I am just the messenger." -Lyta Alexander |

Leonardo
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good question, I have some problems too sometimes. Greeters is the first on the list, I usually translated it as "Guild of Welcomers".

For Italian GULP is mostly translated by me so it is not very useful XD but it may be useful for other languages.

Lunanne
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I checked the dutch translation ( I never use the dutch site, it makes me cringe) and at least in the categories I used the english name, adding the dutch translation in between brackets. For the other things I tended to use the english names (I think) especially for in game terms like "Age" and "Journeycloth" . I did this after in discussion with the community, where I had already noticed usually the english terms are used.  This might be a specific dutch thing though.

For the Guild of Greeters I used the same one as Leonardo, Guild of Welcomers, as this seemed the most fitting. For the Guild of Messengers I used "Guild of Journalists", as the dutch word for "messenger" is more used as in "postman" or as in  "messenger of bad news" . "Journalists" seemed to me a better description of our activities :P 

Lyrositor
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French is a descriptive language (I think it's much like Italian) so it's very hard to find words that match short ones. For example:

  • "Guild of Greeters" would be translated as "Guild of those who welcome",
  • "Cleft" has no exact translation; "fissure" would be close, but it's already used by,
  • "Journey Cloth", as mentioned above, is problematic, but for a different reason: many terms sound... good... when you hear them in English, but in French, they lose that carracteristic, such as for this case.
  • Globally, the biggest problem I've run into while translating so far TCP, for example, is length, many articles having to be stripped of small parts here and there or have their layout changed to fit.

How do you use GULP? I glanced at it a bit, but it looks more like a repository then anything.

 

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Nev'yn
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Another thing I should mention when I do an online tranlation, I"ve also learned to immediately cut/paste the term I just translated. (As in translate something from English to Russian, then cut/paste, and retranslate from Russian/English.) Sometimes it "shows" how the translation is off. I can then "fidget" with the wording some.

[May put an Edit here later]

*****

@Ly: Well, I tended to use ULP, before it was GULP. I often would wander through the site to find terms I needed as guest. I could "look over" all the projects. Now it seems you can't do this. (I gave up after about 15 minutes last night.) I agree with Luna, it was a bit "unweildy" to use.

@Luna: Wait a second...I don't deliver the mail!?! Remember when I asked if you still wished to have copies of all the ki-mails? I changed my mind. Now I *want* you to have them!!! wink

@Leo: Guld of Welcomers...Nice! I like that.,,Why didn't I think of it?

| "The truth speaks for itself, I am just the messenger." -Lyta Alexander |

Ron Landry
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Thanks Polgara for starting this thread. Quite a lot of responses until now. Seems to be a common problem for most (all) languages, as I expected.

And it may be very language specific, also. As far as I know in french for example, it's usual to translate nearly every english term, but in german you often have the  - let me say - "hamlet problem": to translate or not to translate, that's the question! For a lot of terms it would be quite unusual to translate. But if you translate you have to deal with several possibilities. That's the crux of the matter why a common stuff dictionary may be very helpful.

Considering, that there is a lot of text on the GoMe Website which has been translated until now, one should follow those unexpressed decisions (if there are no special causes to change that). I suggest, a baseline should be defined. Subsequently this dictionary should be updated as the need arises. All that language depending, of course.

This baseline could involve the following stuff:

  • Names of the ages (translate or not?)
  • Names of the hoods (translate or not?)
  • Names of the guilds (translate or not?) - the language specific welcome page has still established this ... !?!
  • Names of events (translate or not?)
  • Names of functions and responsibilites (e.g. cavern criers)
  • Names of animals and stuff in the ages

So far my incomplete thoughts ,a lot of stuff may be unconsidered. Please be a patient.


And so I close realising that perhaps the ending has not been written ye

Ron Landry
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In addition some words about user friendly translation.

If it makes sense, I add the original english term in brackets. I like to use brackets also to explain abbrevations at it's first appearance, even if they are not explained in original english text. For example: AGM, HN, DMR or abbrevations of some explorer names (DTC) etc. Example: Erinnerungsabend  [Heritage Night HN]. So in the following text "HN" could be used without further explanation.

During translation you may sometimes have to mess around with curious problems:

  • What's the meaning of DMR exactly? D'ni Musicological Research Hood or D'ni Musicological Research Group? Or only D'ni Musicological Research? Depending from context sometimes this and sometimes that? So you have to add "group" or "hood" or what?

Ron.

 

 


And so I close realising that perhaps the ending has not been written ye

OHB
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Nev'yn,

I had a look and saw you logged in but you seemed to get stuck on the profile upgrade page since it was the first time you logged into GULP. Can you let me know what it was doing wrong that prevented you from submitting the form?

Once we get that fixed you'll be able to see all translations.

 

Luna, is GULP "unweildy" to use? Please let me know why! Looking at the logs you've only looked at 20 pages over the course of 5 minutes when logged in. I hope you'll let me know what can be improved so you'll come back...or at least use the site for a little longer before giving up. :)

 

GULP can be thought of a little like a repository. If it would interest you all, we could set up a special "Myst Terminology" project where you can list everything you want translations for. Then you all can translate things, discuss translations, and get help from translator's outside of the GoMe. Thoughts?

 

URL: http://rel.to/gulp

OHBJECTION | OHBLITERATION | OHBFUSCATION

Lunanne
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No, it's not unwieldy I actually kind of liked it :) It's just that I simply don't do that much Uru things anymore and I forgot about it.

OHB
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Lunanne wrote:

No, it's not unwieldy I actually kind of liked it :) It's just that I simply don't do that much Uru things anymore and I forgot about it.

Oh ok. In that case, awesome. :)

OHBJECTION | OHBLITERATION | OHBFUSCATION

Ron Landry
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OHB wrote:

GULP can be thought of a little like a repository. If it would interest you all, we could set up a special "Myst Terminology" project where you can list everything you want translations for. Then you all can translate things, discuss translations, and get help from translator's outside of the GoMe. Thoughts?

I like this idea. I would suggest to name this project "GoMe Myst Terminology" or "Myst Terminology on GoMe Website".

Explanation: The Myst terminology used on the GoMe Website partly differs from terminology used in GULP project "Myst Online: Uru Live". For example: GoMe may decide to translate "Hood" into german term "Gemeinde". But in project "Myst Online: Uru Live" the winning translation may be "Hood". And GoMe uses special terms, which are no "native" part of MOUL. For example: "Cavern Crier" or  "All Guilds Meeting", "Heritage Night" and other events.

 


And so I close realising that perhaps the ending has not been written ye

OHB
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Well, my only concern there is that the terminology should be able to be leveraged by everyone...for any project. One of GULP's features is item linking. It's like embedding 1 translation inside another. For example:

Saturday = Sabado

"Today is Saturday." = "Hoy es {saturday}"

When the translation is viewed in Spanish, {saturday} is replaced with the current best translation, and you'd get "Hoy es Sabado".

So, imagine if someone decides to create walkthroughs and puts them in GULP to be translated. Translations from the Terminology project could be dynamically inserted.

I'd like to suggest that we keep the project generic, such as "Myst Universe Terminology". It would then contain different folders to categorize the content. One for each major Guild, one for each game, perhaps even one for each age. We assign names to a lot of things that don't have names in-game. Why not gather them all in one place and try to create some consistency across languages?

OHBJECTION | OHBLITERATION | OHBFUSCATION

Dagnarus
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Nev'yn wrote:

For Russian, the online translator calls the "Guild of Messengers", for instance, the "Guild of Heralds". The Greeters are "Guild of Those Meeting", which looks really odd to me.

Don't really trust an online translator :D It can't make normal translations...

But that idea is very good:) It would be very usefull for translators, to have the same translations for same names, locations and another general words :)

 

Ron Landry
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There has been a discussion about translation consistency in GULP Forum already. So Polgara and me have not figured out a new problem, but that's not really surprisingly, isn't it? Nev'yn first mentioned GULP here and I think that looks like the right place for - maybe special - GoMe translation needs, also. I am strucked that we are on the way to an generally agreement ?!

Nev'yn wrote:
@Ly: Well, I tended to use ULP, before it was GULP. I often would wander through the site to find terms I needed as guest. I could "look over" all the projects. Now it seems you can't do this. (I gave up after about 15 minutes last night.) I agree with Luna, it was a bit "unweildy" to use.

Well, yesterday I have registered at GULP. After loggin in I have added / valued a couple of terms, just to work a little bit with GULP. And it looks fine. The only problem may be: I've found no possibility how to revert a winning translation. I didn't used GULP as guest. Maybe this was Nev'yn's problem?


And so I close realising that perhaps the ending has not been written ye

Ron Landry
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OHB wrote:
I'd like to suggest that we keep the project generic, such as "Myst Universe Terminology". It would then contain different folders to categorize the content. One for each major Guild, one for each game, perhaps even one for each age. We assign names to a lot of things that don't have names in-game. Why not gather them all in one place and try to create some consistency across languages?

Ok. That's similar to what I've suggested. But I suppose, those subfolders for each Guild should only contain those terms, which differ from same terms in the "Myst Universe Terminology". So the terms collected in "Myst Universe Terminology" should be some kind of superior. Is this possible? Guild specific terms should only need to be defined, if they differ.

Suppose you want to translate the name of an event. Then you would have first to look at the "superior" term. If found you have to check if this is appropriate for GoMe (your Guild). If so - that's it!  If not you should add a translation term in GoMe's (your Guild's) folder. If you would NOT find a "superior" term, then you would add it in the common folder of "Myst Universe Terminology".

Very formal, is'nt it? But if I'm not complete wrong, then the question is: How we can assure, that all translators at GULP who add terms in project "Myst Universe Terminology" will consider such kind of arrangement? Maybe I'm fixing problems where no problems are? I'm openminded for other ideas ...


And so I close realising that perhaps the ending has not been written ye

Ron Landry
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OHB wrote:
Well, my only concern there is that the terminology should be able to be leveraged by everyone...for any project.

I think, we can live with that. It depends on your point of view. I would prefer to see that more as a feature than an insufficiency .


And so I close realising that perhaps the ending has not been written ye

OHB
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Ron Landry wrote:
How we can assure, that all translators at GULP who add terms in project "Myst Universe Terminology" will consider such kind of arrangement?

Not just anyone can add new items to the project. Only those designated as project managers can do that. I suggest picking a couple of people to be project managers and make a thread where requests for new terms can be put and addressed.

For the winning translations, they cannot be reverted. You can, however, suggest a better translation. Once that gets enough votes it will be the new winning translation. Original content cannot be translated because it's already considered to be done.

I've already created the base project and some folders inside with some terminology to start with. Once I finish it up I'll activtate it and make it available for translators to see.

In the meantime, figure out who the project managers are going to be. I'd like to see one of them be Dagnarus. After doing almost 2,000 translations, I think it's fair to say that he's familiar with GULP and how it works. :)

OHBJECTION | OHBLITERATION | OHBFUSCATION

Dagnarus
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OHB wrote:

In the meantime, figure out who the project managers are going to be. I'd like to see one of them be Dagnarus. After doing almost 2,000 translations, I think it's fair to say that he's familiar with GULP and how it works. :)

I would be a project manager with great pleasure! :)

Leonardo
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If we do this project on GULP I think we should try to make it general, since it will be open to everyone to contribute. Trying to propose a standard way for the community to translate Uru terms in all the languages, not just Guild specific.

Ron Landry
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Dagnarus wrote:
I would be a project manager with great pleasure! :)

Hi, project manager! ;)


And so I close realising that perhaps the ending has not been written ye

Lyrositor
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I've been looking around and I like GULP!

I'm just confused about one thing: when browsing Myst Online: URU Live and Ages, once I click on certain items, I go to another project, Myst Universe:

http://gulp.orangehairedboy.com/?page=project_item&iid=296a8b328dd36b98fd2e23485224e998&lid=7

This page looks quite untranslated, but then again, it doesn't appear in the menu. Is this an old project? A hidden project?

 

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OHB
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I'm surprised you didn't put two and two together!

1. You can't get to that Myst Universe page anymore.

2. Myst Universe is the name of the project I just created based on this thread.

3. I've created a new item cloning feature in GULP especially for this. Thus the icons next to some items in Age Names.

Once I've finished getting all of the basic bits in place I'll open it up first for the project managers and then to the public. In the meantime, if you want to start suggesting things for me to pre-load, feel free.

 

OHBJECTION | OHBLITERATION | OHBFUSCATION

Dagnarus
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Ron Landry wrote:

Hi, project manager! ;)

:D :D

Lyrositor
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OHB wrote:

I'm surprised you didn't put two and two together!

Whoops! Guess I haven't been paying enough attention to this thread. Sorry...

 

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Nev'yn
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Wow...Where to begin? This is what happens when you don't comment on stuff as it occurs. (I have only myself to blame!)

*****

@OHB: Nice to finally meet you! I met your OHBot back when I was new to Uru around this time last year. (Then he went away. frown) I must admit I was confused those times when I'd see you online, and not the Bot. I think I tried pming you once to play 20 questions, but didn't get a reply. Sorry!!! (The next time I work in Winter Park I'll try to send you a message to see if you're free for coffee or something....) Anys, I'll get back on topic before Luna attacks me with a salad fork: My issues with GULP is that it simply wasn't doing anything. I'd submit the page, and it would just reload as the same page. No error message or anything, just a page reload. *shrug* Nothing major, as I'm no help except with Gaelig or Latin. (And I'm hoping we're not translating URU into those languages!) The major issues I had with ULP as I recall, is that once I registered, I could no longer "freely browse" the projects. (Why I would do this will be addressed below.) I could only view those languages I "signed up for". It's possible I still could, but didn't now how. Not important now for me, I guess....

@Dagnarus: I realize the online tranlator is not the "best solution". But, we once had a handly little program in the Cavern called "Babelbot". I still use it from time to time to help non-English speaking explorers. It not longer does translations...But, I *can* still translate stuff via an online translator then copy/paste it via Babelfish. Not the best solution, but it works. After all, it is from this method I first met Ron Landry in the GoMe pub. It also allowed me to work with Niy and Polgara to do what I could to "expand" GoME services to the community until a better solution was found. I also use it to learn some other interesting things by translating websites. (For exampIe, I believe it was a Russian snowboarder named Dmitry who once had the motto, "сделай все прямо сейчас", or "Do everything right now".) Lol!!!

@Ron Landry: The problem for "uniform" terms was problem for Niy and me doing Russian translations. Case in point: Bevin or Hood? To me the terms can be used interchangeably. Another example is Messenger/Crier...Right now all Cavern Criers are also Messengers, but in the past they weren't...And, not all Messengers are Criers. It's subjective which is more "correct" based on the context.

@Luna: (This technically goes under another thread, but I don't feel like making two posts tonight.) The Leo/Website joke was first said by White. It is simply really funny to me...but as it's getting a bit "stale"...I'll not use it again for a while. Also, sorry about the salad fork joke...Oh, and how "off-topic" this post is now!

@Leo: See the comment above for Luna, I still don't want to make several posts. I'll make the kimail in a few minutes for the Uru2U project. As for the GoA/Alahmnat post I recently made: Does that invalidate his request for help? He's recently made a few posts over on Moula and he is still a Forum Mod over there. I'd like to have GoMe keep good relations with them, if possible...For obvious reasons...A "halo" of goodwill for helping him find someone for his website update is more than worth a little effort on our part.

@Everyone: I realize a Hood and/or Bevin is not the same thing...but as this an "Era" issue..."For me", it is.

*****

All of that being said, I now bring this very long post at last close! 'Night, everyone!!!

| "The truth speaks for itself, I am just the messenger." -Lyta Alexander |

OHB
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Nev'yn wrote:
I must admit I was confused those times when I'd see you online, and not the Bot. I think I tried pming you once to play 20 questions, but didn't get a reply.

LOL

Nev'yn wrote:
The next time I work in Winter Park I'll try to send you a message to see if you're free for coffee or something.

That would be loverly!

Nev'yn wrote:
My issues with GULP is that it simply wasn't doing anything. I'd submit the page, and it would just reload as the same page. No error message or anything, just a page reload.

I wonder if that's because you didn't select other languages. I'll look into that. In the meantime, I'll fully activate your account so you can get back in.

Nev'yn wrote:
I'm no help except with Gaelig or Latin. (And I'm hoping we're not translating URU into those languages!)

Irish is on the list! Knock yourself out. :)

Nev'yn wrote:
The major issues I had with ULP as I recall, is that once I registered, I could no longer "freely browse" the projects.

That changed in GULP. You can now view everything even if you don't speak that language. It just won't let you translate something into a language you don't speak.

Nev'yn wrote:
Why I would do this will be addressed below.

You forgot that part - but it doesn't matter - browsing is perfectly fine with me :)

Nev'yn wrote:
But, we once had a handly little program in the Cavern called "Babelbot".

*ears perk up*

Nev'yn wrote:
I still use it from time to time to help non-English speaking explorers.

Neat.

Nev'yn wrote:
It not longer does translations...

Ugh...I really must fix that...

Nev'yn wrote:
The problem for "uniform" terms was problem for Niy and me doing Russian translations. Case in point: Bevin or Hood? To me the terms can be used interchangeably.

OHBJECTION! They shouldn't be used interchangably. There is ONE neighborhood called Bevin, all of the user-created ones are called Neighborhoods. (Or "hood" for short because the Nexus has limited space on the screen)

Nev'yn wrote:
Another example is Messenger/Crier...Right now all Cavern Criers are also Messengers, but in the past they weren't...And, not all Messengers are Criers. It's subjective which is more "correct" based on the context.

So they should both be translated and available for people to use. Chosing which one to use, however, is a job that only a translator can do.

Nev'yn wrote:
@Everyone: I realize a Hood and/or Bevin is not the same thing...but as this an "Era" issue..."For me", it is.

Oh, well in that case OHBJECTION retracted. But, we you should remember that we must translate the present, not the past. The quicker we stamp the word Bevins (*shudder*) out of our collective memory, the better.

OHBJECTION | OHBLITERATION | OHBFUSCATION

Trekluver
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I've refrained from this conversation but I might as well make my thoughts known.

First off, I consider it important for these translations to be correct. In my case, this would be for the New Greeters. I have to concur with Lunanne, from all the information I can garner (As somebody who does not speak a foreign language. (My Spanish is rusty.) "Guild of Welcomers" or something there abouts seams to be the best alternative to "Greeter." Of course, this begs the question, how do you properly incorporate the word "New" into "Guild of Welcomers?" Would you say "New Guild of Welcomers?" "Guild of New Welcomers?" "Guild of the New Welcomers?" Or rather, something different like "Guild of Current Welcomers?' These are all questions that I cannot answer. But do keep in mind, when the translations are made they need to reflect what the guild is about. Whether it's GoNG or GoMe, this will be the most important factor in deciding each translation.

 

Nev'yn wrote:
Nothing major, as I'm no help except with Gaelig or Latin.

Very cool. "Off-topic" - Do you happen to be into Irish or Celtic Music? You can PM me about that. - "On-topic"

OHB wrote:

Nev'yn wrote:
But, we once had a handly little program in the Cavern called "Babelbot".

*ears perk up*

Nev'yn wrote:
I still use it from time to time to help non-English speaking explorers.

Neat.

Nev'yn wrote:
It not longer does translations...

Ugh...I really must fix that...

Nice to see you around again OHB; the cavern has missed you (Good luck at Disney BTW!). Yes, please do fix it someday. Since the New Greeters are picking up some pace, some of us may need such a tool again in the future. (I know TomVal would love it a LOT more than I.)

"Kinda Off-topic" - I just have to tell it! I encountered my first new comer since I've been greeting for the New Greeters. Yay! In context to this topic though, if anyone has doubts that these translations are for naught, never fear. There are many more explorers that have yet to explore the cavern.


TOC#60089 DI#132103 MOULa is

Leonardo
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For deciding which translation is best GULP has its voting system :)

OHB
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Yeah. Best translation wins through peer-review.

OHBJECTION | OHBLITERATION | OHBFUSCATION